Video Podcasting Made Easy! With Ross Brand & Kevin Kolbe

Chris Stone [00:00:00]:
Would you please welcome to Dealcasters, 2 of the most highly recognized live streaming and video experts on the planet and authors of the new number one international best selling book, Video Podcasting Made Easy. Please welcome mister Ross Brand and mister Kevin Kaldi. How are you, gentlemen?

Kevin Kolbe [00:00:19]:
Fantastic. You know, this book, which by

Chris Stone [00:00:21]:
the way is available in the Amazon carousel called Video Podcasting Made Easy, and it was it's great, and it's an interesting way of of doing a book, and we're gonna talk about sort of that process, guys. But, Ross, what I really liked about it, and maybe you could start us off and, Kevin, just me you know, pick up the the crumbs that Ross has left you here. But the mindset like, some to to a lot of people get into podcasting, audio, and or video, and they get caught up in the mind junk of all the gear. But there's just so much about the mindset of, you know, you're on mute when you first start a video, like you said, or, you know, mistakes happen with live video. And you being someone

Jim [00:01:02]:
who has had such

Chris Stone [00:01:03]:
a history in live video, talk about the mindset for someone who's getting into video, maybe live and or recorded.

Ross Brand [00:01:10]:
Yeah. You you can't take any moment too seriously. I mean, when you're doing live and this goes whether it's live radio, it's live TV. The the show's gotta go on. So whether you do the greatest thing in the world or the worst thing in the world, there's a lot more show left. And if there isn't, there'll be another show. So you you gotta just kinda keep pushing on. Little mistakes and things are gonna happen when you're live, for 15 minutes, for 5 minutes, or, you know, particularly if you're going live for 45 minutes to an hour beyond.

Ross Brand [00:01:45]:
So you you have to accept that. Don't make a big deal out of it. If you can laugh at yourself a little bit, that's okay. Or you just kind of ignore it or you apologize and move on. It all depends on on the circumstance. But the worst thing you can do is feel bad about it and then take away that positive energy that you'd otherwise be sharing with the audience.

Chris Stone [00:02:08]:
I love that. Kevin, what do you what do you think, about about what Ross had to say and and sort of the that because I know you have different perspectives as well that you you talk about in the book with with the mindset of a of a creator.

Kevin Kolbe [00:02:21]:
Yeah. Well and, you know, I'll add to that. You know? I mean, some people may remember Dick Clark and Ed McMahon made a lot of money on a show called bloopers and screw ups and whatever it was on, and and they made a ton of money with the network just showing screw ups and bloopers from other ones. So, you know, there is that. Just start a live stream and just just screw up the whole time and then you can sell it for a lot of money. I, you know, I think it's never been a better time to create content. I mean, there just every day, every month, it gets easier to get into it. And I don't say that, like, you know, we don't work hard at it, and it's just, like, anybody can do it.

Kevin Kolbe [00:02:57]:
But I do believe that a lot of the things that keep people from doing it, whether it's gear or tech or whatever, it's just, those are things that once they start getting over, it's like, oh, okay. Nobody died. Everybody lived, and this is kind of fun and I've met people and made a little money. So it's, you know, I I you know, I I love it. I love it. Yeah.

Chris Stone [00:03:20]:
And you and you said something there. You kinda brushed, over it, Kevin, but it's it's it's so important too is is you said we met people. And I always feel like one of the most underrated aspects of podcasting, especially video podcasting, is the ability to meet people and to network with people. I would have never met you 2 gentlemen if it wasn't for video podcasting, and I thank god I did because, you know, Jim and I would not be here if it weren't for the 2 of you. And I mean that wholeheartedly. Kevin, you've taught me tons of stuff on Final Cut Pro. And, you know, a lot of people will say, how did you do this? How'd you do this? And I was like, you know, go to at Kevin Colby on YouTube. Right.

Chris Stone [00:04:02]:
That's where I'd I basically steal everything he's done. And, of course, Ross, you know, whole reason why this show exists is because you did one video and showed somebody how to get on Amazon live. And Jim calls me one day and says, hey. We're Amazon influencers. I'm like, what the heck is that? Do I wanna be that? And, you know, the whole reason why we're here. So, guys, we totally appreciate, everything that you've done, not just for us, but for the industry. It's really important that people understand, I think, when you start watching videos from people and you start doing all this other stuff, that you don't just wake up like this. Right? You you have to you have to start with training wheels on the bike and start doing all that.

Chris Stone [00:04:43]:
So I know that the the book is called Video Podcasting Made Easy. But, Ross, talk us through kind of you know, if someone's just maybe in interested in audio podcasting, and they've maybe even recorded some stuff, and maybe they have an RSS feed that's sitting on Lipson or Captivate or something like that. Well, now it's time. They they they're like, oh god. I see all this video now. What do I do now? What's the mindset there?

Ross Brand [00:05:10]:
Well, I always just say, just turn on your video camera, your webcam, whatever, and record like, if you're just doing an audio podcast, you're recording. So why not let the video record too? And then pinpoint a good 32nd or 1 minute clip where you're making that powerful point that you make or you say that one funny line that, you know, everybody's gonna laugh at and share that on social and see how you feel putting some video out and then think about, okay, maybe I should just put the whole video out. And it's okay that my lighting isn't perfect. It's okay that I'm not necessarily always looking at the camera. I'm almost 10 years into this. I still don't look at the camera, and and I've done okay for myself. Sure. I I started out using the built in camera in my laptop.

Ross Brand [00:06:01]:
Now I get it. Like, things have advanced and the the baseline has has risen a bit, so you probably wanna have an external webcam at at the minimum. But you really don't need unless you're selling video production services. Your video production doesn't have to be an a plus in order to get on YouTube and play on that platform and have a chance to take advantage of all the opportunities on YouTube. And it's not just YouTube. Spotify has video. And, of course, we're on Amazon live right now. And, you know, we talk about video podcasting a lot of times like it's this new thing.

Ross Brand [00:06:43]:
First of all, it's been around through RSS feeds forever, but very few people dove into that. But, basically, your show is a video podcast. We just didn't call it that in the beginning, but it's a video podcast. I think I I think I probably did 800, a 1000 shows before I actually called them video podcasts, but they were live streams or recorded videos that I uploaded to YouTube with interviews and doing talk shows. So it's not something that that necessarily means that you have to make this big pivot. Just start learning a little bit of video at a time. And as you go along, the quality will raise. But it's really about the conversation and the connection with your audience and opening up those opportunities that exist on video platforms.

Ross Brand [00:07:38]:
Even though the conversation and the way you guys approach everything is the heart of what makes Dealcasters Live such a remarkable show.

Chris Stone [00:07:48]:
Mhmm.

Ross Brand [00:07:49]:
It just wouldn't be the same in terms of your discovery, in terms of your reach, in terms of your ability to brand yourself, in terms of your clips that you share, the reviews you do. There's so many things. Think about everything you do that just wouldn't either be possible or would be diminished if you didn't have video going along with the show.

Jim [00:08:13]:
Yeah. That's a that's a great point, Ross. I mean, I think you know, and I I feel fortunate to to have Chris as as my partner in the show because those are things that we didn't start out knowing that. Right? It took time. It's that getting 1% better every time you go out and do things. I mean, you know, when Chris and I first started, you know, we were both, you know, wearing the cans and, you know, using different microphones, some of the microphones

Chris Stone [00:08:39]:
you talk about in your book.

Jim [00:08:40]:
And and then some of that, it becomes a preference. Right? Like, some of it was like, oh my gosh. Are these in ear monitors gonna work, or am I not gonna hear things right? And so you start to you start to experiment. You start to learn. And then companies start to see, hey. These people actually do a pretty good job of talking about things, but I think it is interesting. Right? Like, do we really still have just live streaming and podcasting, or is it becoming as in talk about in your book video podcasting? And so, I don't know which one of you wants to take this question first because I think you both have previously written books before this one. But what inspired, both of you to write video podcasting made easy, and, how did you come up with the approach of recording your conversations?

Kevin Kolbe [00:09:30]:
So I can jump into this history, and then, Ross, you can you can he can segue into the to how we were how we did it this way. So, my first book was live streaming made easy. I bought this made easy track. And Ross had me on his show, and he asked me live on the air, you know, you think I'm gonna write another book? And I said, yeah. I think so. And he said, do you know what it's gonna be about? And I said, yeah. I think I wanna do something about video podcasting. And this goes back to sometime late last year, because the last book came out ironically about the same time this one did in August.

Kevin Kolbe [00:10:05]:
Off air, he said, hey. Just got an idea. Would you wanna write it together? And I'm like, I hadn't thought about that, but, yeah, that sounds that sounds pretty fun. And then from there, we just you know, it took us a little bit to kinda get the schedules going, and then it's like, you know, at the same time, I didn't think we knew how we might wanna do it, but I didn't think either we neither one of us, I think we wanted to work together and write it together, but it's like neither one of us was fired up about, okay. Let me write some and send it to you and you read it and send it back and stuff like that. Because I was saying the other day, and Ross didn't know this, but I wasn't gonna read anything he sent me. I was gonna say, yeah. It's good.

Kevin Kolbe [00:10:44]:
Because I trusted him. And then Ross's idea is is what to me was the genius idea of actually how we did the book. So I'll I'll, I'll I'll yield my part of the floor now to to the gentleman from New York.

Ross Brand [00:10:59]:
So, thank you. My good friend from the great state of North Carolina. Colleague. Yes. Okay. So I thought, what if we did this as a video podcast? Essentially, what if we got on mics, on cameras, and, you know, we had a little outline, but nothing too detailed, but just something to follow along, an idea what the chapters would be about, and then just had a conversation as we're walking through the steps of video podcasting and see how that turns out. And if we've got the content for a book and if it would read well in conversational style where each you know, Ross Brand, this is a video podcast. Kevin Colby.

Ross Brand [00:11:50]:
Yes. It is. Ross Brand. So what do you think? Like, would that work, or would that be too difficult for a reader to get through? And, what we did was he took what we had. We put it through AI to kind of filter out the things that either weren't suitable for the narrative or, just, you know, didn't work for what we're trying to do, clean up the grammar and and such. And then we looked at it, and we said, yeah. This this really does work as a conversation. I think we captured what we were what we were intending to get across, and it feels like a conversation.

Ross Brand [00:12:30]:
And, you know, nobody's really done a book like this. So Yep. What the heck? Let's try it this way. And, you know, maybe the video podcast style of writing a book will be something. I mean, I think there were only really two areas of the book that we actually wrote like a traditional author would be, and that is Kevin wrote a foreword, and then I wrote an afterward. And those 2, I think we each sat down on our keyboard and we typed out, like, a normal chapter in a book, but the rest of it was all in conversation and then shaping it a little bit in terms of, you know, tightening it up and cleaning it up so that things were precise and made sense. But I don't think reading this book is a lot different than if you had listened in for a certain amount of time on our on our conversation. And and I'm gonna yield the floor back to my guy, the fine gentleman from North Carolina.

Kevin Kolbe [00:13:27]:
Well, I wanna add something to that too. And I I think, you know, we didn't wanna interview each other. I mean, you know, I've had him on my channel and I've been on his many times, but we weren't gonna interview each other. We wanted to talk about it. And so I think he nailed it, and hopefully, it came across that way in the book. We we think it did. It was a conversation we were having. And quite honestly, the recording of it, I think was far more enjoyable than the editing of the text after it because you were just kind of and in fact, because we have everything.

Ross Brand [00:14:01]:
And

Kevin Kolbe [00:14:01]:
so we would go back and say, was that really what you know? And so we'd go back and we'd listen to it, and I'd go, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's right. I forgot we were talking about it. And and it just it was so I don't look. I don't know how other books are written that way. You know? And it just was enjoyable, but it was really about the conversation 2 guys were having with the background and the experience. Not that we know everything, but just the background and experience that we could talk through it.

Kevin Kolbe [00:14:27]:
And, man, I just it was it was a blast doing it that way.

Chris Stone [00:14:31]:
I could tell.

Ross Brand [00:14:31]:
That part was so much fun. It really

Chris Stone [00:14:34]:
was. Yeah. I could tell. And here's why here's why I think this this concept is genius. It's like, okay. A lot of times when we talk about podcasting, we say, well, we make the rules. Right? We don't have, like, affiliate. And, like, you you don't have to end at a certain time because an ad needs to be inserted if you you know, unless you have those like, you make the rules.

Chris Stone [00:14:53]:
Right? And you guys said, well, we wanna write this book, but let's do it this way. And no one is telling you, no. You can't do it that way because that's not how books are written. You know? It's like, screw it. I'm gonna write a book, and this is how we're gonna do it. And it's about video podcasting, so it makes total sense. I love that. And I also love the fact that because I know you guys, or even if somebody doesn't know you personally and maybe they're they're fans of your videos that you've been been putting out for for years, you know, subscribe to your communities, whatever.

Chris Stone [00:15:23]:
I'm imagining the conversation in my head while I'm reading it. And I think that that's a that that's in you guys didn't hide behind the fact that this is how you were, you know, quote, unquote writing the book. You didn't hide behind it. You didn't say, here's the book, and so we're gonna have this conversation, and then we're going to bookify it. Like, make it look like it's some sort of book. You said, no. This is the conversation. This is what we're doing.

Chris Stone [00:15:44]:
And and then you even said, yeah. And by the way, we're going to be this is going to be a an available video podcast, for you, to use in the future. I just think that that, like at first, I was like, wait a minute. This is just a conversation with these guys, you know, with that's transcribed. And then as I'm going through it, I'm like, okay. This is brilliant. I really love the concept of it. So really, really well done.

Chris Stone [00:16:07]:
I it's just and I to your point, I don't think anybody else has done this. Or if they've done it, they've hidden they bookified it. I don't know.

Kevin Kolbe [00:16:16]:
I love the term bookify.

Chris Stone [00:16:18]:
Yeah.

Ross Brand [00:16:18]:
Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people who are, like, solo writers will dictate into, a recorder or something like that if they feel more comfortable getting the material out that way rather than staring at a blank screen or they're not super comfortable with their own writing as a first draft or they just think it's faster. But I'm not sure if 2 people have coauthored a book this way before. Yeah. And there

Kevin Kolbe [00:16:43]:
were several times it was like we we would say, you know, we I don't know of a road map. I don't there's not like the cheat code we can go and look up on YouTube about how we were doing it. And then there was even a hidden, benefit or 2 in there is when it's all done, now we even have we could release it as an audiobook because we have the conversation. And we may have to add, you know, a little here and there, and we could even release it as a YouTube channel or a web series or a course because now we've done all that. We don't have to go back. Even if we just need to rerecord an intro or something like that, it's not like we're trying to go back through the whole book and going, okay. When we're in the hosting part, what what the heck were we thinking about? You know? It's we've got we've got those videos. And even if we needed to add to it, I would say maybe 5% new versus what we have.

Kevin Kolbe [00:17:39]:
And even that will sound different and look different than it than it reads differently. So, again, I that was all Ross's idea for doing it that way. I you know, I you know, to quote Forrest Gump, I'm not a smart man, but I hadn't thought about that either. And it was like, dang, dude. What a great idea. So, and again, it just it made it enjoyable. It just made it enjoyable.

Chris Stone [00:18:04]:
Yeah. I could tell I could tell by the by the way it was written. It really did read like it was you talking and, you know, without the superfluous, like, you know, filler words or whatever. You know, you obviously tweaked it a little bit so that it was easy to read, but at the same time, it did It almost was like I was there in the room, you know, and you guys were having the conversation. You guys do cover a lot of tech and a lot of gear in the book, and you you you simplify it. And then in the at at the end of the book, you've you list it all, which is which is great, especially for those of us who are putting together Amazon lives, and we wanna put all of that gear into the carousel. So thank you for doing that. But, what I noticed about it is this.

Chris Stone [00:18:46]:
The book can be a reference point, not just for the mindset aspect of of video podcasting, but and some tactical things like using your your phone, which I really wanna get into, Kevin on that. But when I looked at the gear, I realized I was talking to Jim about this. You know, the I think the first mic you brought up was a Samsung q two u. And since the very beginning of Dealcasters, that mic is the mic we talk about. And that is 5 years ago. And here now we and now we're here in 2024, and it's still the mic that people talk about. And so, you know, you I think the misconception is when you're talking about gear that, oh, it's, you know, next year, it's just gonna be outdated. Well, not good gear.

Chris Stone [00:19:33]:
And I think that's really what, what this is a great book for is to go, okay. Rode PodMic is still Kevin Colby's favorite mic. You know? And he also likes the QTO, and he's got this and this and this and this. So I've got a budget of this, and here's where I can start. It was it was that intentional on your part in terms of the the the gear that was mentioned?

Kevin Kolbe [00:19:54]:
I mean, I I I think so. I mean, I, you know, I I have my attitude toward gear has changed quite a bit over the time. I mean, coming from television, I mean, goodness, you know, we there was a budget, but we, you know, we we would overspend. I I remember the first time we were gonna use a DSLR, a DSLR for a video shoot and the engineer going, we can't take that out. People are expecting us to have expensive gear. And I'm like, what? And to this date, I've never had anybody I never had a client say, well, wait a minute. Now what what camera are you gonna use? They don't care.

Jim [00:20:31]:
You're right.

Kevin Kolbe [00:20:32]:
They don't care. And then over time, it's like I mean, I used to just go, yeah. Don't use a webcam. Now it's like, look. If you have to be you just put the built in camera on your laptop, which isn't the best, but in the scheme of things, who cares to get it out there? And and there are some very expensive pieces of gear that are really nice, but not everything has to break the bank. Not everything has to be the newest and the latest. I think people go into debt, and, like, I've gotta buy all this because, yeah, I'm on YouTube, and you can tell when something news dropped because everybody's talking about it. You know? And I gotta get a drone because everybody's got a drone even though I can't fly it.

Kevin Kolbe [00:21:10]:
You know? So I've gotta do all that. And then you have this closet full of gear that costs a lot of money, and you still haven't recorded anything. And so yeah. I mean, I you know, and I'll I'll I'll share one quick thing too for Ross Simpson that, you know, I did a video on the Samsungs comparing it to the Rode mic because I had it. And I just did it, didn't think much about it. I think it was a year maybe or 2 after I did that video, the one of the marketing guys from Samsung reached out and said, hey. Really appreciate what you said about the mic. And I'm like, what did I say about the mic? And we wanna send you a mic just for free.

Kevin Kolbe [00:21:48]:
You can have it, play with it, do a video if you want. There's no guarantee. And since then, they've sent me 2 mics, just based on that video that I talked about on a mic that's under $70 that is still solid just as much today as it was when it was released. So, again, I throw that out saying you never know sometimes where it's gonna go beyond just that video or that livestream or that podcast.

Ross Brand [00:22:09]:
Yeah. I I think I I also wanted people to have a sense. Kevin started probably with a lot more knowledge of gear than I did, but like a sense of the progression. Like, here's where I started, so you can start here too. Here's where I went to. So if you're you're open to spending more or you're ready to move up to the next level, let's give you, sort of a cheat sheet so you don't have to look at every product under the sun. And and also just to acknowledge that, you know, whether somebody's making a transition to a video pod cast or they're doing it for the first time of any type of podcast, they're all at different levels in terms of what they know about cameras and microphones, in terms of what their budget is, in terms of what they think they should be spending or not spending or what they need to get. Because to some extent I mean, do do I need this, Mike? No.

Ross Brand [00:23:10]:
But because doing this is a huge part of what I do, and it's part of what I love and enjoy and whatever, Yes. It's important to me. And I think there's, like you said, the expectation that I'll have a good mic at certain point is there. But I have recommended, I think, the Samsung Q2U to 100 of people, and I have never gotten anybody who said they were unhappy with it. Yeah. I've gotten some people say, you know, I thought it would last a lifetime and it didn't or, you know, this thing doesn't exactly look like the way it looked in the picture. What but not one person has gone, boy, this sounds like crap. You know? Yeah.

Ross Brand [00:23:53]:
Everybody thinks it sounds good. It's what I used the first 2 or 3 years. Yeah. And you could get that mic for 59 to $79. Yeah. And you could use that the rest of your life and be just fine. Yeah. And that's kind of the message I wanted to get across is that beer shouldn't stop you from from doing this.

Chris Stone [00:24:16]:
Yes.

Ross Brand [00:24:16]:
But, hey, if you've got the knowledge and you've got the money and you've got the time hey. It might be fun for you to learn how to use a mirrorless camera or a DSLR or, you know, play around with a higher level audio interface that also records and works as a a mixer as well or whatever. Like, let's just give you the options, and you can choose what works for you. But without ever shaming anybody into the idea that you can't do this because you only have such and such. I mean, there are people making a fortune online holding a laugh mic like this and talking into it. There are people who start that,

Chris Stone [00:24:57]:
Ross. Yeah. You start that.

Kevin Kolbe [00:24:58]:
That was that was a $19 la a laugh mic. Yeah. Yeah.

Ross Brand [00:25:02]:
Who who I think put the Blue Yeti across the street in the wrong pattern, and they're making a fortune. So, you know, yes, you wanna do as well as you can with what you have. And if you have the ability to do more and it feels right, yes, but understand that it's not the be all and end all. Right. It's the conversation. It's your relationship to people And and the information and the entertainment and all that, that's what it is. And all these other things, they're like a telephone. You know? I mean, you don't you know, I'm not gonna talk to Kevin today because, you know, I don't have my good telephone.

Kevin Kolbe [00:25:40]:
Yeah. My my Mag phone is still charging up.

Ross Brand [00:25:43]:
My my dial you know, my old rotary phone isn't, isn't quite as good as my, you know, my high quality cell phone. So you know what? We're not gonna have a conversation because I'm not gonna sound this good. That would be ridiculous.

Chris Stone [00:25:57]:
You guys blaze the trail on doing a book like this. You you should blaze a trail so the next video podcast you do, you guys join with the big cell phones, you know, like the bag phone, like Kevin was talking about. That'll be like your microphones. You're gonna be like, are you,

Ross Brand [00:26:12]:
like, welcome to

Chris Stone [00:26:13]:
the Kevin and Ross show.

Kevin Kolbe [00:26:15]:
Oh, yeah.

Chris Stone [00:26:16]:
You know?

Kevin Kolbe [00:26:17]:
Yeah. I mean, you know, I do miss those days of being able to stretch out the 20 foot, phone cord from the wall. And then if you could get it untangled in time, you know, and then when it finally got stretched out, it would usually wrap around a block. You know, those were the good old days, weren't they? Yeah. Yeah. Oh my

Jim [00:26:35]:
god. I think I think it's so important what you guys bring up about the gear. Right? We all get gas gear acquisition syndrome. And I think the problem with, especially people just starting, is they see folks like us and think that we all started with all this high end gear, and that's not the case. Right? It's like I remember I think I had, you know, things I wouldn't suggest to people now, but, right, wearing the earbuds that I were plugged into my computer from that I got with my iPhone and using my you know, I might have had a a c920 webcam was my camera, and, you know, I was using natural light out the window to give me my lighting when me and Tim first started our show. And so you can go back and see those videos. Right? So you can see that progression. But I think this or I'm gonna spend 1,000 of dollars to start a show, and then all of you said, well, gosh.

Jim [00:27:27]:
I've I've done 5

Chris Stone [00:27:28]:
shows and nobody's watching yet.

Jim [00:27:31]:
They and it's like, I just wasted all this money. It's like, you know, none of this happens overnight. I mean, maybe it did for for YouTube, but I know it definitely didn't for me.

Ross Brand [00:27:39]:
I mean, I think the point you just made I think Kevin and I have talked about this. That's the easiest way to feel defeated is to go out before you've done anything, spend 1,000 of dollars on gear, and you you're all dressed up and you're thinking I'm I'm at the podcasting elite. It'll be 5 minutes before, you know, YouTube's buzzing. And you do something, you get done, you go, I might not be that good at this. Now I've just you know, it's embarrassing. I've just spent all this money, and I'm in my fancy studio. And it's like, get good first and then bring the gear up to meet the level of the content I

Chris Stone [00:28:18]:
love it.

Ross Brand [00:28:19]:
Doing or what you need. Don't set yourself up that, like, you know, I gotta hit a home run on my first bat or, you know, I'm going back to the Myers. Well, and you

Kevin Kolbe [00:28:27]:
may not even enjoy it. I mean, you know, years ago, I think I think this will apply. Years ago, I I thought, you know, I really wanna play golf. And so rather than and take lessons because I'm stubborn. I just went out and bought some clubs. And I just went out and I did get golf magazine

Chris Stone [00:28:51]:
a magazine,

Kevin Kolbe [00:28:51]:
read a magazine and look at the pictures. And so I went out and I started at the level of suck and got worse. Nice. Now I, I was very good at hitting my ball on the wrong fairway and playing against people the whole time. And I remember I'm not proud about this, but I remember the last hole I played, I threw the golf club further than I hit the ball and I sold the clubs. But my point is, is like, I didn't try and learn the game. I didn't try and figure out how to get better. I went out and invested in all this stuff that I eventually sold at a loss.

Kevin Kolbe [00:29:29]:
And I did I never enjoyed it. Now I could slay him putt putt, but that's a different that's a different livestream. But, yeah, it's it's like use what you've got. Get into it. Start learning it. Figure it out. You may even shift from like, wow, I don't really like interviewing people, but I like doing solo poetry or what, I mean, whatever it might be and then go, wow, you know, I can always ramp up gear as needed or whatever. It's the things that that may help you discover your own talents and your gifts and your love for it before you just start dropping a lot of, you know, money on something that maybe you don't even need to at some point anyway.

Ross Brand [00:30:08]:
But you've already spent $10,000 setting up a studio that's guest friendly. Oh, yeah. You know, I got my 4 mics and my 4 chairs and 4 cameras. Oh, I'm I'm not really very good at interviewing. But you know what? When I do a solo show, everybody seems to love it. Yeah. Hey. How quickly can I sell off this this gear in the studio?

Chris Stone [00:30:31]:
Yeah. So much of it is is developing your voice, putting in the the reps. You don't go to the gym one day, come back shredded. You know? And, we're all testaments to that. Like, it, you know, it's it takes years. It's a long game. You wanna be successful at this. It's you you have to settle in and start realistically like you guys talk about in this book.

Chris Stone [00:30:56]:
And for those of you who are watching and listening, the book is video podcasting made easy, and it's available on Amazon. And if you're watching and or listening, you can go to deal casters dot live. Highlighted in the carousel, we have Ross Brand and Kevin Colby's to reset the room here, so to speak. You know, Kevin, you talk and and you have a historical like, on YouTube, you just if you go to Kevin Colby on YouTube and you pull up all of his phone videos, a lot of what, I've learned throughout the years is from you, Kevin, and specifically for the phone. And I think a lot of people don't understand, like, oh, they think they need a, you know, even a HD webcam or, a, HD camera, or DSLR or something that, you know, is gonna spit out in 4 k. Like, who wants to see, these knuckleheads in 4 k? Not me. But talk about, talk about using the phone, because everyone has a smartphone, right, for the most part. I mean, you know, I mean, listen.

Chris Stone [00:32:06]:
Everybody's buying their 8 year old smartphones at this point. But talk about maybe some some concepts, of using the phone and how somebody might go, well, I didn't even know you could do that.

Ross Brand [00:32:19]:
Yeah. And and by the

Kevin Kolbe [00:32:20]:
way, if somebody's watching this and they don't have a phone, just use your kid's phone. So there you go. Yeah. You know, use the one that you just bought them. That's probably better than the one you have. But, you know, and it's funny because I still see this. I still see this in comments. I still see people going, well, you know, I I just I I don't wanna use my phone.

Kevin Kolbe [00:32:36]:
And I will always go, why? And and not that they have to answer me, but I I I've never heard a great response back ever because we feel like, well but, you know, I can't really do anything with my phone. And then I like to point out, like, you know, the movie director, Steven Soderbergh, who now shoots on iPhones. Like, a big movie director who's been nominated shoots on iPhones, and you've got Apple that's that's basically creating cinema cameras in a phone. And it's like, you know, I don't I don't I don't like editing on my phone, but I can shoot my video on there. I can edit on there. I can do my graphics. I can upload it. I can livestream from there.

Kevin Kolbe [00:33:22]:
Oh, and by the way, I can still message people. I can buy stuff on Amazon. I can watch your show. You know, there's really not I mean, there's one other piece of gear I have that that if I were starting today, I would the only if I were starting over today with nothing, the only pieces of gear I would use would be my iPhone, and I have an iPhone 13 Pro, 13, still works, and the DJI Osmo Pocket 3. Yeah. That'd be it. I wouldn't go buy any other cameras. Now I people say, well, you have cameras.

Kevin Kolbe [00:33:56]:
Right? But I've I've bought things over time. And, you know, 2, 3 years ago, the phones weren't quite where they are now. And even the mics I still believe in an external mic, but even the mics have gotten better. Guys, I can't tell you how many times I've used light provided by God for my light. Mhmm. That I use my iPhone most of the time. The selfie camera, the one I can see, to shoot my videos and my thumbnails. You know? And it it just works.

Kevin Kolbe [00:34:29]:
And I'm not trying to sell anything to Netflix, and I'm not trying to do anything else. I'm I'm I'm producing videos mostly for that. And and, again, I go back to something I said earlier. I've never ever had a client ever once, no exaggeration, ask me about my gear ever. And part of that is because I think they expect, well, we've either seen something you've done or we're gonna take a leap of faith or something like that, or you've made us feel comfortable. And so they don't really know to ask or care because they're they know that it's gonna be fine. And so if I show with my phone or this or that or whatever, you know, but I yeah. I'm I'm a big believer in in the iPhones and more and more and more and more.

Kevin Kolbe [00:35:11]:
You know? And whether it's Android or whatever. I'm a I'm a Mac guy, so I I just use iPhones. But, I mean, seriously, you can do so much with it, and it's instant. I mean, look. Right now, my webcam is a Canon M6 Mark 2. I've got a Canon M50 Mark 2 somewhere somewhere in my office. And I love those cameras. I love holding a camera.

Kevin Kolbe [00:35:32]:
I love changing a lens. But you know what? Even with those, I've either gotta hook it up to my computer to record on my computer to see what I'm doing. I've gotta pop the card out, which I do that some or on my phone. Oh, there it is. You know what? Trim, trim, upload. I'm done. I can go and now fall asleep in front of the TV watching Netflix. So it's just that's that's kinda my take on it.

Chris Stone [00:35:57]:
That's that's killer. Ross, I'm changing changing some gears here because so much about video podcasting and audio podcasting is still very, very siloed. And I think there's a number of maybe audio only podcasters that feel this fear of missing out, right, of of video. And then you've got all of these video podcasters, or I should say these people starting podcasts on both or sometimes just video, just YouTube and calling it a podcast. And we're not gonna talk about what is or isn't a podcast because that's, like, a 3 hour show. But, you talk a lot about discovery as being a big factor in video podcasting in the book. And I thought, you know, I kinda wanted to open it up to you and, maybe kinda talk about somebody who's maybe hesitant. Not necessarily fear of being on camera, but maybe they're just like, why would I need to even do a video podcast? Do I already have a podcast?

Ross Brand [00:37:00]:
Maybe you don't. It's possible you don't. K. You have a nice you have the audience you want. You're making the money you want, whether it's through advertisements or sponsors or it's through, you know, driving traffic to your business. Or maybe it's a hobby and you just enjoy putting out that piece of audio every week. Okay. Maybe you don't.

Ross Brand [00:37:22]:
But I kinda look at it as it's it's almost a no lose thing. Right? The worst thing that can happen is you put the video on YouTube and, you know, you don't get an audience there. But the chances of you getting an audience on YouTube are probably greater and your ability to build it faster as a result of getting some video on YouTube. We're not talking about, as Kevin likes to say, an audiogram is not a video podcast.

Chris Stone [00:37:54]:
Thank you.

Ross Brand [00:37:54]:
Having some video. The video doesn't have to be of the highest quality. It doesn't have to be shot perfectly under the best lighting. But taking the, you know, your headshot, so to speak, you know, your your talking head image, having your guest, if there's a guest, either switching to the guest or having you both up at the same time because so many people now are watching YouTube on television. And when I'm watching YouTube on television, I wanna see a moving picture in front of me. I do not wanna stare at a still image. I just I need to be my brain is in the in the mode of, like, watching something, even if it's just watching the same person's mouth go like this for an hour. Okay.

Ross Brand [00:38:43]:
So the long the long and short of it is just just try YouTube. You can you can upload the episode with the video. Still you still distribute your audio podcast and do all the things you were doing. Yep. The only difference is you upload the video to YouTube. You create a 16 by 9 thumbnail to catch attention. You put a title on the thumbnail, maybe. You put maybe some words.

Ross Brand [00:39:08]:
That's even a debatable thing. You come up with a good title for the video, and then you put it in what's called a pie a playlist, and you name that playlist a podcast. And that's it. A podcast is really just another video playlist, but it tends to be one of talk shows versus, say, a playlist of how to videos. Although, no there's no rule that says how to videos can't be a podcast playlist as well. In fact, I take many of my how to videos and I distribute them as an audio podcast. Yeah. Because in most cases, you can follow along or they'll follow along until they need to see something, and then there's a link to the video.

Ross Brand [00:39:54]:
So they still wouldn't have discovered that video without listening to the audio podcast. But I think, in general, video will help them discover your audio podcast or just discover your content better than audio can. Put a search term into Apple Podcasts. Go on now. Seven results are podcasts that haven't released an episode in 5 years. Okay. Put a search term into YouTube, and it's video after video after video after video, current, popular, you know, and maybe your video, if you have it optimized right or you watch a similar video and then your video gets suggested. So just take just try it.

Ross Brand [00:40:38]:
If it doesn't work for you, there's no rule that you can't go after, you know, 3 weeks or a month or I mean, I'd say give it a try for 6 months

Chris Stone [00:40:47]:
Yes.

Ross Brand [00:40:48]:
And just put that video up there. All you're doing is you're turning your video camera on, edit with the video so you're editing the audio and video at the same time. Because you you if you're if you're editing your audio, now you're just editing it with the video. And and and and try it because it might just work for you. It might open doors to a whole new audience. And particularly if you're thinking that you might want to live stream. There are people who did audio podcasts who then went to YouTube to livestream, and they went from having almost no traction to having tens of thousands to 100 of thousands of viewers because it's a different audience that wants to interact with you. And there's the chat, and Kevin talks in the book about all the different features of YouTube that engage your audience and let them feel more connected to you versus listening to an audio podcast, which it isn't always easy to comment or reach out to the creator.

Kevin Kolbe [00:41:48]:
And, yeah, let me let me tack on one other thing too about what you're talking about YouTube. And and it's not that I'm down on audio only podcasts. I mean, every morning, I get up on the treadmill and I'm listening to podcasts because I don't wanna watch and try and walk. I can barely walk without doing anything. But one of the best things that YouTube did for creators, and and if this catches flack, I apologize, was sunset Google Podcasts and roll it into YouTube Music. Because now that brings a whole new world to podcasters and people are on YouTube because you can turn those playlists into podcasts that you wouldn't have gotten on Google Podcasts. And That's a great point. It's why now YouTube is, like, the number one destination for podcasting.

Chris Stone [00:42:38]:
It's a great point.

Kevin Kolbe [00:42:38]:
It's because now you you combine that. So it you know, again, I mean, you start it. You may not, at some point, wanna keep doing the video podcasting format, which I think can be a lot of different things. But now if you're already on YouTube and you've established that and you're making some connections, it's like, oh, okay. And that, again, Amazon Live is great and and these other platforms are great. But but when you look at the power of that, that's that's money.

Chris Stone [00:43:07]:
Yeah. Discoverability is just monstrous. You know? And I think the other thing you gotta realize and and, Ross, you you you touched on this as as well. It's like, well, when you are discovered, you gotta make sure it's something that people want. Right? And not a squiggly line over a graphic like we like we, like we talk about. And so I I you know, I'll open this up to to both of you because I I I'm I'm curious to go down this rabbit hole a little bit. How important is it? You know, I understand we want someone that is a new video podcaster to not get, like, bogged down by all the stuff. You gotta do it.

Chris Stone [00:43:43]:
You gotta plow and get the camera going, get the mic going, and and at least get some content up there. I get it. But once you've established that you've got yourself a YouTube channel and you're putting your podcast content, on YouTube and I guess for, you know, Spotify, if you wanna put video there, but it's really small, in terms of viewership. But creating content on your YouTube channel with your with your video podcast that isn't necessarily the entire episode. So, like, for instance, when we get an episode and this episode will be, you know, repurposed forever, we take excerpts from it. We not just shorts, you know, but also, you know, an excerpt of when, you know, Ross is talking about, what he just talked about, discoverability, Kevin, when you're talking about the phone. Like, we're gonna have segments, and those are gonna be utilized in the proper platform. Because I feel like a lot of times people will take their podcast that they've created with audio, and they've got the video, and they're just making a Xerox copy of it and uploading it to YouTube.

Chris Stone [00:44:49]:
And it's this and it's really just kind of the same thing. Whereas, like, with Conan O'Brien, for example, Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend. The only way you can actually hear the entire episode is the audio podcast. On YouTube, it's just excerpts from that podcast. So it's the expectation, I guess, maybe for a YouTube viewer or a person that that finds something on YouTube is not necessarily sitting down for an hour and watching a video like this. So if if somebody's kind of further on down the line and they wanna create something with their video podcast on YouTube, is it is it smart for them to think in the future about, okay, I wanna, you know, test it out with some shorts. I wanna test it out with a 3 minute excerpt or a 5 minute excerpt, or just let's let's get this thing going before you even think about it.

Kevin Kolbe [00:45:38]:
Well, I don't know if we're gonna agree on this or not. Okay. I kinda hope we don't. And and by the way, we didn't agree on everything in in the book either. Oh, good. I would say that trying to go into short form to go to long form is the wrong way to do it. The the belief that people don't watch long or long form on YouTube, it's it's kinda like one of those rumors that just won't die. There are mega long mega long videos, that or or talking head videos that do extremely well.

Kevin Kolbe [00:46:13]:
It really comes down to the topic, the value. And, I mean, like, one of my favorites is micro. And I I really it takes me several days to get through it because I don't, like, usually sit down for an hour and a half Right. And watch something. But I may listen to it and then come and go. So if if, you know, you have a 45 minute format, do that. And then from there, repurpose the parts and pieces. I think, personally, this is this is my take.

Kevin Kolbe [00:46:45]:
I think you're doing whoever. I think to try and go to YouTube to use pieces and parts to get you to somewhere else is misusing YouTube. You can do it. But it's also just like trying to go to Instagram so you can get people back to YouTube. People are on their platforms because they're on their platforms. So, again, if you're gonna do an hour long, hour and a half long, 2 hour long video podcast that's got guest or not, make it available to me as audio and video complete. Then you can still chop up parts of it. You could talk you could still have longer shorter, longer form clips if you wanted to, like what you were talking about.

Kevin Kolbe [00:47:27]:
You could just do a whole clip about from this about how we wrote the book. You could do a whole clip just on the phone. You could do a whole clip on on Ross talking about Mike's. Those are different pieces of content that can still lead back to the longer Right. Conversation. And, again, I go back to Mike Rowe. And I realize everybody has different ways of doing this. But if you listen to Mike Rowe's podcast and you watch it, the only difference between the audio and the video is the way he and Chuck, I think is his name, open the audio podcast.

Kevin Kolbe [00:47:58]:
They set it up a little bit more for audio, and there was there's not the commercials. But you you'll see the exact break point when they get into it. And I would say be once they get into the interview, it's exactly the same interview. So I think this I'm gonna do just a little bit here and there and then test it out, and then I'll go along. I would say you're training your audience on this short snackable stuff. And then all of a sudden, it's like, woah. It's an hour long. You know, go for it.

Kevin Kolbe [00:48:32]:
And and long form is alive and well on YouTube. Just because shorts became so dominant doesn't mean that long form took a back seat at all. That's my take.

Chris Stone [00:48:45]:
Ross, how about you?

Ross Brand [00:48:47]:
Well, Kevin's totally wrong. No. I I actually agree with I actually agree with with everything captain said. The only thing I would say is if you're putting the full episode up there and for whatever reason because different audiences on different platforms don't always take the certain things. For whatever reason, your podcast on YouTube isn't something people are digging long for. You're not getting a lot of views. You're not getting much watch time. Then maybe you go, okay.

Ross Brand [00:49:21]:
What I'm gonna do is I'm going to to take the best segment, the best 3 to 5 minutes. I'm not big on on shorts as being a winner anywhere outside of shorts. If you wanna be great at shorts, do shorts. But as far as driving traffic, then you have to ask yourself the question. Do I make those great 3 minute segments drive traffic to other other YouTube videos of mine, or do I send them to the audio podcast? And you probably give a choice in your in your description, but I I think I think don't use YouTube just to promote the audio podcast until you've proven that you can't succeed on YouTube as a YouTuber. You can't succeed by putting the full episode on or then then, you know, maybe you have a clips channel, and the clips channel does great. And then you send people to listen to the full episode somewhere else, you know, on on on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or, you know, any of the 3,000, you know, podcatchers that are out there. That's the only thing I would say.

Ross Brand [00:50:32]:
You know? Otherwise, I agree with Kevin a 100%. What what are

Jim [00:50:36]:
your guys' thoughts? Because I think I think all of us have definitely seen the power of YouTube. But even like today, we're we're multistreaming to multiple channels. But I also know, like, our friend Doc Rock, he used to do a lot on Facebook. He's like, you know, I'm done with Facebook because, one, it's, you know, my my friends and family, they don't really care. And so he kinda went in all on YouTube. What do you guys think? Do you think that there's a place, like, say, on LinkedIn? Because I think, you know, it kinda hit on Instagram a little bit. It's like I and maybe it's, you know, our behavior based on our age. I'm not gonna sit on Instagram and watch somebody talk for an hour on a on a live video.

Jim [00:51:14]:
But to your point, I can watch YouTube on my television, and I might, you know, I may not even watch it all, but I'll at least be listening to it in the background. And what what are you guys' thoughts on that?

Ross Brand [00:51:24]:
Well, a year from now, I'm only gonna care about the video on YouTube. Now today, I'm we're gonna I'm not talking about this video, but I'm talking about if I do a live stream, I'm only gonna care in the future of is it on YouTube? How's it doing on YouTube? If I'm gonna share it or embed it, it's likely to be from YouTube. But in the moment, there can be some advantages. There'll be a few some people that discover it on on LinkedIn and chat on LinkedIn. Sometimes I I mean, I I don't like putting it on Facebook because I feel like Facebook just really doesn't give you much of a chance to have much of an audience. But still, there are people who watch on Facebook, and I don't wanna neglect them. I put it on x because, hey, one right person retweets you and, boom, that thing's taken off on x. But also just because x is like a kind of a search engine in the paper of record, so to speak, for digital media.

Ross Brand [00:52:31]:
So it's, like, nice to be to have it in your your feed. But but in the long term, the only place people go to see your back catalog is YouTube. It's the only place people go to search for videos for the most part. I could be wrong on that, but that's that's my thinking on it is that, you know, multistream if you want to. Don't multistream. But in the long term, you wanna have that content on YouTube. That's where it can get a second and third and fourth shelf life. That's where it can take off a year later.

Ross Brand [00:53:03]:
And that's where your video library portfolio sits that a client can look at it or, you know, a fan or whatever. So and plus all the monetization options on on YouTube.

Jim [00:53:19]:
Kevin, what are your thoughts?

Kevin Kolbe [00:53:21]:
I mean so I'm going back and forth on on multicasting. I used to do it. I can speak for my channel. When I decided to really get serious about YouTube and to focus on YouTube, I that's when my channel started growing over time, is that I didn't try and do all these other platforms because I felt somebody told me to, and I had to be all these other places. Now granted, I do think trying to move people from one platform to another. Can it be done? Yeah. Is it very successful? No. Not really.

Kevin Kolbe [00:54:02]:
And I know there's always gonna be an exception to the rule. There is no video centric platform like YouTube, period. And I know people go, what about Vimeo? Yeah. But Vimeo is Vimeo is completely different completely different platform. But from a video centric platform, YouTube is it. I mean, YouTube is just it. And so, you know, I think it depends. I mean, if you're doing a big event, maybe it makes sense to to multicast over every platform that you have access to.

Kevin Kolbe [00:54:36]:
But like Ross said, a week later, if if it's if it's gonna be found, it's gonna be found on YouTube. It just is. I mean, you know, I I have people say to me, you know, I published something on LinkedIn, and I can't even find what I published. Yeah. And, you know, and Oh, yeah. You know, and and it's just it's just the way it is. It doesn't mean the other platforms don't have their pros and cons. I and I'm not it's not like YouTube is perfect, but, I mean, goodness.

Kevin Kolbe [00:55:09]:
I don't know that Instagram still knows what it's it what it is. You know? I I think it's back to maybe photos for a bit. I don't I don't I don't know. And, you

Ross Brand [00:55:18]:
know, I think you also have

Kevin Kolbe [00:55:19]:
to do what you're comfortable with, but also over time, you may go, wow. You know, I'm really getting more more, leverage over here. I'm I'm seeing more happening over here. I know, again, for me personally, when I leaned in a 100% on YouTube and quit trying to get somebody to move over here to here to here, that's when YouTube, you know, really worked. And I forgot who it was that said it, but it was kinda like, let YouTube do YouTube for you. Right. And and it did because YouTube is all about viewer satisfaction. Even over the creator, therefore, viewer satisfaction.

Chris Stone [00:55:54]:
Well and you guys also talk about this in the book, Kevin, is that, you know, there's a community you can build there. Right? And so Oh, yeah. You you've done it on YouTube as well is like you start like, oh my gosh. This creator's answering me. I I had a question, and they're like, here, there, and we've done it on Dealcaster. Somebody's like, hey. Does this do this with the flux capacitor included with the XLR or whatever? And you're just like, yes. It does.

Chris Stone [00:56:18]:
And here's what here's what something else that might help you. And it's like, that took 2 minutes. And all of a sudden, you've got a subscriber for life. And Oh, yeah. Like, the the the community aspect, I think, of this whole thing. And as if you're just an audio only podcaster, that's in that's incredibly difficult to build, on on that, on those platforms. You have to you have to really go to other platforms in order to to try to build that community. It's difficult.

Ross Brand [00:56:44]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Stone [00:56:46]:
Well, guys, my camera is dying. We got a full disclosure because we're this is this is live video. So you probably saw it go black here. This is what I get for not charging my, my battery properly. And that is not an excuse. I I could do this all day. I really did wanna touch on a few other things, but we'll we'll have to have you guys back on. And and Sure.

Chris Stone [00:57:08]:
Listen. We gotta leave, we gotta leave some other stuff, for everyone else because in order to get the rest of the stuff, you gotta pick up this book that I'm holding up on the screen for those of you who are listening, in the audio podcast. The book is called Video Podcasting Made Easy, authored by this is a number congratulations, by the way. Number 1 international bestseller, authored by Ross Brand and Kevin Colby. We can't believe we got the Mount Rushmore of video podcasting here on Dealcasters. And, no, it's not Willie Nelson. It's it's Kevin Cooper.

Kevin Kolbe [00:57:42]:
A lot of extra granite for this.

Chris Stone [00:57:44]:
Yeah. This

Ross Brand [00:57:44]:
is all

Kevin Kolbe [00:57:45]:
I can

Chris Stone [00:57:46]:
say. Ross, who do people say you look like? Like, everybody has some, doppelganger. Has anybody said, hey, Ross. You look like you know? No?

Ross Brand [00:57:54]:
Not really.

Chris Stone [00:57:55]:
Oh, wow. One of a kind.

Kevin Kolbe [00:57:57]:
It looks like Ross.

Chris Stone [00:57:59]:
It looks like Ross. Awesome. Guys, it's been amazing. Thank you so much again for, for being on the show. This flew by Thank you. Like, this was insane. It flew by so quickly. So much fun.

Chris Stone [00:58:12]:
I mean it. You guys are absolute legends, huge influences on both me and Jim. We really appreciate you guys, you know, being on the show. And everybody who, has joined us in the chat, Ruby c Richard and and James and others, and some unpronounceable people on Twitch, which was always fun. Hi to you, emojis that I can't say. Appreciate you joining. And,

Ross Brand [00:58:38]:
Before your camera dies, Chris, I I just wanna say congratulations on everything you guys have done with this show and this brand. It's probably, what, 5 almost 5 years now that you've been doing this.

Jim [00:58:48]:
It's a little over 4. Yeah.

Ross Brand [00:58:49]:
You keep evolving, and you keep, Thanks, man. Just really being pioneers and having, you know, what I think is the best show on on Amazon live. So congratulations on everything, and it's an honor to be on your show. Thank you.

Chris Stone [00:59:04]:
Thanks, guys. And, yeah. Any recommendations for a camera battery? I'm I'm all ears for the next book. Camera batteries made easy. Pick it up on Amazon. Alright, guys. Take care, and, as always, don't fear the gear.

Jim [00:59:20]:
Thanks for listening to Dealcasters. Congratulations. You've taken another step forward in your content creation journey. Please don't forget to hit the subscribe or follow button here in your favorite podcast player so you can be reminded every time we drop an episode.

Chris Stone [00:59:37]:
We love hearing from our listeners and viewers. And if you're wanting to watch our shows live on Amazon, feel free to follow Dealcasters Live as well at deal casters.live. Follow us on Twitter or subscribe to our YouTube channel, where we also included added content that you cannot find anywhere else.

Jim [00:59:57]:
If you have questions about this episode or have something you want us to review, you can also email us at Dealcasters at Dealcasters dot live. Thanks again for listening, and you know the deal. Don't fear the deal.